How to defend myself against a MM + Tank rush in a TvT?

Question

When playing Terran VS Terran, how can I defend against this rush?

• The opponent comes with Marines, Marauders and Tanks.
• He deploys the Tanks and then uses scans to destroy my Rax + Bunkers + Units.
• He comes in my base with all units and the game is over.

See my replay here.

I had Marines, Marauders, Tank(s), Anti-Air, Vikings.

---

Tzenes answer is impressive! I think that my problem is not defending, but it is attacking:

You’ve sent out your SCV to do a little scouting. You’ve found your opponent, and he or she is fortifying heavily. You’re doing the same, focusing on building structures, protecting your entry points, and placing anti-air units at all the right locations. Your base is covered from all angles. Occasionally, there’s a skirmish in the middle of the map or around the edges of your bases, but no one seems to be pushing outside of their comfort zone. You look at the clock and realize -- this isn’t going to be as quick of a game as you had originally thought….

It’s easy to get caught up in a game of turtle vs. turtle, with both players choosing to build and mass up units, but that may not always amount to a quick or exciting match. It's understandable that newer players might feel apprehension about leaving their base to go after an opponent or trying riskier pushes while simultaneously learning build orders, unit counters, and more. It feels safe within the confines of the base, and there's less to manage. While a viable strategy at times, getting too comfortable in a base can also invoke a false sense of security. There are benefits to sitting tight and letting your opponent waste resources and units against your defenses, but there are also some risks such as being penned in with waning resources and units.

— A Tale of Two Turtles, Battle.Net News

So, I'm going to combine my BO with Tzenes story and try to improve from there.

Asked by Tom Wijsman

Answer

I realize some of my answers are a little long, so I made a TL;DR version

---

I'm going to ask you a few rhetorical questions and I don't want you to be offended, but they are things you need to be thinking about.

1. What was your plan going in to this game?
2. When did you plan your timing push?
3. Why did you build 3 Barracks?
4. What did you think when you scanned a Factory with a tech lab and a Starport building?

In my opinion these were the three major mistakes you made. By 7:30 it had become your opponents game to lose before a single shot was fired.

Looking at your BO I saw:

• 3 Rax (1 tech 1 reactor)
• 1 Factory, all before the 7 minute mark.

If you can cut the produce of the factory, and done an MM timing push at 6:30 (which is the usualy MM timing push) you would have easily won the game. At that time your opponent had 5 marines and 1 tank (no siege mode). The normal MM push there is 4-5 of each Marauders and Marines. You would have steam rolled him.

If you had done so your answers would have been:

3 Rax timing push, heavy on Marauders at 6:30

Instead, you chose to go 4 unit producing structures off 1 based (which you can't really afford as Terran). This meant that your Barracks sat idle, you didn't produce Marauders and you didn't have a good timing push. Its because of this I asked my first 3 questions.

You don't really seem to have a plan.

Strangely this wasn't what lost you the game. Not having a plan, while hard to over come, is not crucial, especially since your opponent didn't really have one either (there is no good reason he builds that second Barracks). The problem became your response to what your opponent was doing.

At 6:30 you saw a Factory with a tech lab, two Barracks and a Starport being built. The second Barracks is really the red herring here, so let's ignore it for 5 seconds. What does: 1 Barracks, 1 Factory, 1 Starport mean? In TvT this means Marine/Siege/Viking.

In response you throw down an Engineer Bay (for Turrets, which you build) and a Starport for Vikings, and continue to build Marines (and a single Marauder). Which of these things is supposed to counter Siege tanks using Vikings for sight? Well Viking vs Viking is key, but what about the Siege tanks?

By 11 Minutes you'll have built 2 Vikings and 3 Marauders with another one of each on the way. Ultimately there is nothing you can do about the Siege Tanks and they roll your Marine heavy force. They box you in and that's game.

In theory you probably could have done something clever with Dropships around 9-10 Minutes and caught him with his pants down, but really you don't do anything to stop him.

Before you play your next game (before you even load up Starcraft) I want you to have an answer to the first three questions I asked. And next time you scan Factory/Starport I want you to think "Great! My timing push should arrive right before he gets Siege Tanks!"

---

A plan is like a story, it has a beginning, a middle and an end. Turtling and finding the right moment to attack isn't a story, its like a blurb you'd find on the cover. Let me tell you the story of Bio into Biomech:

I'm going to open up three Barracks into Marine/Marauder. Marauders will work well as a meat shield and the Marines will provide the real fire power. I'll push just before stim finishes so that I arrive with it. The goal of my push is to stop early expansions and punish heavy teching strategies. I know that I can support 3 Barracks on 1 base and still have a little extra income to plan for expanding.

Mid-game I'm going to transition into MMM and Medivac drops. This will keep my opponent contained and force him to build a lot of defenses he won't be able to use to attack me. Additionally, Medivacs will let me really take advantage of Stim and keep me mobile. I know I can support Medivacs on top of my three Barracks, but nothing else, so I will make sure to have a Command Center up first. My goal is to gain map control and keep my opponent boxed in.

Late game I'm going to start adding in factory units like Siege Tanks or (more recently) Thors to break my opponent's defenses. I should be comfortably on 2 or 3 bases by now so resources won't be an issue. I will crack my opponent like an egg

My strongest weapon is my mobility and I will abuse it. I can end the game at any point: early, middle or late. I will restrain myself from over committing and starve my opponent to death. I will end the game when I choose. I am Terran BioMech.

It sounds scary doesn't it?

Answered by tzenes

Check more discussion of this question.

Worker rush: Why do people do it?

Question

Why do people worker rush (right when a match starts, you send all your SCVs/probes/drones to the opponent's base to attack their workers)? I have had this happen a couple times in 2v2 matches, and it just ended in messy games where they either lost immediately or lost eventually. I would never consider doing this in my own games, and I always wondered what the compelling reason would be.

Since there is almost no decision making at this early stage of the game, there is no advantage to play from really. So, what could the rationale possibly be? Here are my theories:

• In low levels of play you could hope that your opponent doesn't know how to attack with workers, so your own workers attack with no repercussion.
• If you expect a 6-pool, maybe you can have an advantage in worker numbers because they cut all drone production?
• Maybe you are just messing around doing something senselessly
• Maybe you have to go soon, so this is at least SOME action instead of a cold surrender.

---

As for defending a worker rush, see these other questions:

Best strategy against Worker Rush cheese in 2v2 and other matchups

Drone Rushes: Counter for each race

Answer

I'm going to tell you a story, and I hope it illustrates why people worker rush.

Back in 2003 MBC did a champions play off, and in the finals SlayerS_Boxer faced off against [NC]Yellow (probably the best player to never win an MSL). Boxer spawned in the 11 o'clock position and Yellow in the 7 o'clock position. Boxer scouts south and Yellow scouts east (missing the scouting SCV). Boxer goes for a 2 Rax opening and Yellow a FE... except Boxer scouts the Hatchery as it goes down and, in what would be one of the most memorable moments of pro Starcraft, he pulls his SCVs to back his only two marines... and RUSHES!

Even in retrospect it is an amazing game to watch (even more amazing than FruitDealer's 6 pool in the finals of GSL1 2010), but it illustrates the power of the move; Worker rushes (and all other early rushes) are designed to punish your opponent for over extending himself to try and gain a lead. Many players (even pro players) will cut corners in their builds to gain a Macro advantage (TLAF'Ret is a huge fan of this). In these cases the early rush serves to keep these players honest.

This same concept extends to 2v2 matches, except instead of a Macro advantage being conveyed by Fast Expansions, its conveyed by not joining armies. If you can stop your opponents from joining their armies together you have the advantage of fighting two 2v1s (which is easier than one 2v2). A very early double worker rush provides for the ability to do this as many 2v2 teams do not help eachother out in this situation.

Check more discussion of this question.

How to deal with 2v2 rushes?

Question

I play on a 2v2 team as Protoss, my ally is Terran.

1v1 rush handling is fairly straight-forward, and if you're prepared for it the defender gets the advantage because of quick reinforcements, high ground, etc.

In 2v2 however, when a rush comes, it's twice as strong, and the defender is at a disadvantage because:

• It's usually too early to join armies with your ally, so it's 2v1.
• As Protoss, when an early double rush comes in at 6 minutes, they are right at my production facilities. It's easy for one of them to deal with my units, and one of them to take out my pylons very quickly.
• There are more options for the opponent to see high ground: hallucinated colossus, overloards, or because the army is so big, just running straight up the ramp.

For example I just lost to a 6-minute marine+roach attack on Monlyth Ridge. We scouted and knew it was coming, but I don't know what we could have done to stop it. They killed my pylons while I tried to hold them off, thus I couldn't reinforce, thus they didn't even have to kill my base before going to kill my ally.

The typical answer to holding on in a 2v2 game when one ally is dying is: Die as slowly as possible. This is excellent later in the game, but against decent opponents at about 6-8 minutes, this isn't very powerful / possible because:

1. I have very few units to distract them with.
2. My map coverage & economy is not enough to start building dark templar or other surprise tech.
3. This early, they have a very clear idea of what options I have, so they are not afraid to just march into my base.
4. Luring them away from the base is too risky; without any defense in my base they will run in and kill production / economy.
5. Once they kill my production (which doesn't take long), they don't need to bother killing my buildings. They can march straight to the ally's base. They only need to keep a couple units in my base to prevent me from advancing.

My 2v2 team tends to win as long as we can hold off 6-8 minute rushes. Here are some ideas but I would like to hear your comments before I throw away lots of games experimenting:

• More sentries for forcefield. The advantage is this doesn't cost much of a compromise to my build as I can build them just as I build any other gateway unit. However, it only delays the inevitable and doesn't allow me to ramp up my production. It also prevents me from helping my ally if they go to him. So I am pretty scared to use FF in this scenario.
• Hallucination. They won't have detection at this point, and if they arrive at my front door and see 2 immortals and 6 stalkers, they may just run away. If not, it could absorb enough of their fire to buy us more time than a force field.
• Turtle. My ally and I prefer longer games so we just want to be able to hold off rushes. So should we do it decisively by turtling hard? Especially on Monlyth Ridge, could it be that doing a forge-first opening and quick-ish expand is the best way to fend off their early attacks? The idea would be to sacrifice early units, put all resources into defense and benefit from a healthier economy and play the game on our terms. But I am not sure static defense is strong enough for rushes like this anyway, and it's a lot of investment.

So, how does a 2v2 team defend against rushes like this as the different race options?

[Update, after accepting Sorean's answer]:

I want to say how I integrated Sorean's answer into my thinking and on the ladder. I think you can boil the issues down to joining armies at your base means giving up defensive advantages we're used to in 1v1. These advantages boil down mostly to positioning / base geography. Without that issue, for example on Discord IV, the defense strategy is the same as 1v1.

So the response is that, if you want to compensate for the disadvantage, then you'll need to emphasize more heavily the defensive capabilities of your race in a 2v2 defense. Fortunately Blizzard has given enough options to make up for the disadvantage in 2v2 (I think...). Note that I really don't know much about Zerg or Terran, but I'll try to list this:

1. For Protoss:
   1. Sentries with force field - if you can't completely block the opponent, you can at least choke them into a more favorable position.
   2. Cannons, though usual cautions apply for these costly defenses. But in some defensive positions cannons can be favored over units for the amount of damage they deal, and they are useful later in the game to detect burrowed units / dark templar.
2. For Zerg:
   1. Static defense (but usual cautions still apply of course). Zerg can benefit even better because of being able to move static defense.
   2. Creep
   3. Queens with transfuse. Think spanishiwa and how he manages to defend with almost no units against a 4-gate.
3. For Terran:
   1. Bunkers
   2. Siege tanks. Because siege tanks can arrive earlier in the game than anything else with such a long range, they are great for defending main / natural bases.
   3. Supply depots. Not sure if this really deserves to go on this list, but the ability to raise / lower a supply depot can be so useful in making building positioning work in your favor, and out of the opponents' favor. We are starting to experiment, putting the 2nd supply depot in the protoss base if we're walling in.

Answer

2v2 games are a unique beast in the sense that you need to change your style of play. My 2s partner and I used to die a lot when it came to these early quick game rushes, and on the flip side, have rushed others as well to vary up the play style.

You mentioned that you were able to scout that they are doing a rush, you could mix in your ideas of how to survive to get a good counter to a rush. (Going to be using Monlyth Ridge as the example map and your match up as reference PTvTZ)

At 6 minutes (I assume in game time) they can probably have 10-15 marines and 5-9 roaches.

• If you are confident in your micro, forgo static defenses and simply try to out produce your opponents. At 6 minutes, you can get your defensive 4 gate up. Although it's really close. A mix of stalkers to shoot from the high ground and sentries to hold off the ramp should be able to hold them off. Even a few zealots mixed in there to tank damage while sentries pick away could suffice as well. (So you'd have ~2-3 sentries, 4 stalkers, 1 zealot)
• You shouldn't be afraid to get sentries and use force field. As a protoss player you want to have a fair number of sentries mixed into your army anyway later in the game. The force field only lasts 8 seconds so it is not a huge amount of time to stop you from going to help your ally. If used correctly you may even be able to trap a few of their units in your base (although against a roach/marine army that would just give them high ground vision so not really helping you there).
• You mentioned that your ally is terran, there is very little cost to investing in an early bunker or even two (even with the recent patch, he's only going to lose 25 minerals in the long run if he salvages them). So long as your ally is quick on the repair then he should be able to hold off the rush long enough for you to build up an army and flank with him exiting his bunkers to assist when you believe the two of you have enough to take out the attacking army. (Ally if matching opponent would have 10-15 marines as well maybe a little less because of the bunker)
• I'm not sure how your buildings were laid out, but pylons usually shouldn't be in attackable range, although the new patch doesn't help this point much (which I personally think is a pretty stupid nerf to the race, but I digress). Try to ensure that you have overlap on your production buildings.

Assuming it played out with the above, if the enemy ran to your base first, you force field him off, pick off a few units, or even weaken them as the two of you build up an army to crush the attack since your reinforcements will arrive much sooner than the attacking force. If they attack your ally first they run into a face full of bunkers that are getting repaired and your defensive 4gate should produce enough units to kill that army that they are sending, that or enough to force a retreat.

Going a forge first fast expand with cannons in this case you'd probably need 4 or 5 to just hold off that army if your ally responds quickly enough with reinforcements. Also in this case you are forcing your opponents to either deal with your cannons (with a sentry on the high ground to your ramp to prevent a run by, but if your wall is good enough on the low ground a run by would sustain massive losses) or to attack your ally (who again should have 2 bunkers and since you were attacked first, have ample time to get SCVs down to repair. If you go with the forge first opening I would suggest getting at least 1 sentry and a 2:1 stalker:zealot ratio for the first little while as you'd try to stay close to your cannons when trying to engage.

Check more discussion of this question.

How does a Terran player stop a cannon rush from Protoss?

Question

On a small 1v1 map playing Protoss vs. Terran, if the Protoss player brings the probe to build a pylon and forge in a corner of the Terran base, what should the Terran player do?

It seems like the probe is so fast that sending all the SCVs to kill the pylon/probe would slow down mineral gathering.

Answer

When playing on a small map, you should be careful and scout your starting location. When you see a probe coming, try to kill it with two SCVs (micromanagement needed, you will have to round it up). If it starts building a pylon, send about 5 SCVs to destroy it, since without the pylon all buildings are useless. You should have at least one or two SCVs gathering minerals at all times and build more while getting rid of the rush. Then build barracks asap and you should be fine.

So the strategy is like this:

1) if you suspect a canon rush, scout your base 2) once a probe comes in, send 2 SCVs to kill it, micromanage the hunt 3) if the probe starts building a pylon, go for the pylon with more SCVs 4) always have at least 2 SCVs gathering minerals and build more 5) Build Barracks ASAP

Check more discussion of this question.

How does a Terran player stop a canon rush from Protoss?

Question

On a small 1v1 map, Protoss vs. Terran, how does a Terran stop a canon rush from Protoss?

If the Protoss player brings the probe to build a pylon and forge in a corner of the Terran base, what should the Terran player do?

It seems the probe is fast and sending all the SCVs to kill the pylon/probe would slow down mineral gathering.

Answer

When playing on a small map, you should be careful and scout your starting location. When you see a probe coming, try to kill it with two SCVs (micromanagement needed, you will have to round it up). If it starts building a pylon, send about 5 SCVs to destroy it, since without the pylon all buildings are useless. You should have at least one or two SCVs gathering minerals at all times and build more while getting rid of the rush. Then build barracks asap and you should be fine.

So the strategy is like this:

1) if you suspect a canon rush, scout your base 2) once a probe comes in, send 2 SCVs to kill it, micromanage the hunt 3) if the probe starts building a pylon, go for the pylon with more SCVs 4) always have at least 2 SCVs gathering minerals and build more 5) Build Barracks ASAP

Check more discussion of this question.

How does a Terran stop a canon rush from Protoss?

Question

On a small 1v1 map, Protoss v Terran, how does a Terran stop a canon rush from protoss?

If the protoss player brings the probe to build a pylon and forge in a corner of the Terran base-- what should the Terran player do?

It seems the probe is fast and sending all the SCVs to kill the pylon/probe would slow down mineral gathering.

Answer

When playing on a small map, you should be careful and scout your starting location. When you see a probe coming, try to kill it with two SCVs (micromanagement needed, you will have to round it up). If it starts building a pylon, send about 5 SCVs to destroy it, since without the pylon all buildings are useless. You should have at least one or two SCVs gathering minerals at all times and build more while getting rid of the rush. Then build barracks asap and you should be fine.

So the strategy is like this:

1) if you suspect a canon rush, scout your base 2) once a probe comes in, send 2 SCVs to kill it, micromanage the hunt 3) if the probe starts building a pylon, go for the pylon with more SCVs 4) always have at least 2 SCVs gathering minerals and build more 5) Build Barracks ASAP

Check more discussion of this question.