Are there build orders for 2v2 that benefit trading minerals/gas on a specific time in Starcraft 2?

Question

I play 2v2 games on ladder. I am Terran and my friend is Zerg. Currently we use generic 1v1 build orders, but from my time as Warcraft 3 2v2 player I know there were certain tactics that benefited the team by trading resources at specific timings.

A very common tactic with Undead and Nightelf was to go Fiends and Huntresses. The Undead gives the Nightelf player about 40-60 Wood as soon as he starts his Altar. This way he gathers just enough wood to create the Ziggurat on time (without delay), as Gold was the limiting factor, and the Huntress Hall gets created a bit faster (about 10 seconds) which is a huge deal. Afterwards the wood gets swaped back, so the Undead player could tech on time.

My question is: Is there some strategy for Terran and Zerg that also benefits from such resource trades in Starcraft 2?

Asked by ayckoster

Answer

I put this idea like this: resource sharing can balance some "unbalanced" builds and make them viable:

1. "unbalanced production". i.e. one player muscle production to get max capability @ 5 min mark and then use resources of teammate to create pretty big army and surprise opponents. Check my post on teamliquid for one example of this

2. "unbalanced tech". I.e. zerg can build a whole lot of mutalisks really fast using teammate and own gas. Teammate create some mineral army (zealots / marines / you name it).

Answered by Meta

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How do I combat mass Void Rays as Protoss?

Question

I play PvP games with a friend of mine. Neither of us is very good, but he usually wins because he has played more than me. Thing is though that he rarely does anything other than build a bunch of void rays and come have his way with me; he rarely rushes with anything else.

What should I be building to counter this? My inclination is to build stalkers but I am unsure of the exact build and I'm too much of a newbie to know when I should be building what.

Edit: Up until he attacks me, he keeps up a good defense at his base. Last time I played him he blocked his ramp with cannons.

Asked by Muhd

Answer

There are a few things that you can do to kill a void ray rush, mass stalkers that target fire can counter his void rays. Just shift+right-click his void rays and they will drop like flies.

If you let him get that many void rays then it's your fault he wins, if you scout early that he's going void rays just 4 gate him. He will have a tough time holding against you. Most protoss players should have this build in their build all the time, though higher ranked/skilled players will know how to hold it off properly.

Watch this video about Pylons & probes to be able to macro up effectively. Your macro can beat him straight up, even if he cannons in. Immortals destroy cannons so you can get a few of those and break him. Or you can abuse the fact that he only has cannons up front and use a warp prism in the back/side of his base and just warp in a bunch of stalkers and destroy the inside.

If he goes that defensive you can also abuse the fact that he won't be expanding and expand quickly. Get up another base quickly and out produce him. Because he's so heavily invested in static defenses he won't have a big mobile army. That means you can freely and for the most part, safely expand. Just make sure you know where he is at all times. A few observers outside his base can be very handy.

Answered by Sorean

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What are the popular openings / builds for Terran in StarCraft 2?

Question

I don't have too much interest in playing Terran, but I'd like this information mostly to better understand what I'm up against.

Asked by McKay

Answer

There are literally dozens of Terran builds and possibly hundreds of Cheeses. As a result I'm going to try and lay out a couple of the broad strokes, but unlike Protoss or Zerg these are not going to be succinct build orders.

The three major builds in Terran play are:

• Bio
• Mech
• 1:1:1

Obviously there is a lot of variation and overlap between these builds but I'm going to try and lay out the broad strokes here.

Terran bio revolves around building a Marine/Marauder/Medivac force for a nice timing push. This is sometimes called the MMM build. Openings usually consist of 3 Barracks (sometimes called Rax), 2 with techlabs and 1 with a reactor. A Terran economy can readily support 3 Barracks . The timing push here usually comes at about 40 food with a heavy Marauder/Marine force with Stim. The build continues to evolve into the late game by adding on a Factory and Starport for Medivac support. Medivacs are key to Stim based play, as any force that stims is necessarily at reduced HP for the remainder of the game. Additionally, Medivac's provide for drops which increases the mobility of your army. You can also transition into Bio mech, or add Ghosts on for TvP.

Terran Mech grew out of early hellion harass. This usually involved building one Barracks before going to 2 Factory and pumping out hellions for early harass and then transitioning into a more stable Thor/Siege tank force. This is especially effective vs Zerg players going Muta/Ling as upgraded Hellions are powerful vs Zerglings and Thors do splash damage to Mutalisk. Additionally, heavy Siege tank forces are effective vs Hydra/Roach armies. Top Zerg players (such as Artosis and IdrA) have said that Terran Mech is so powerful it is "Broken" (a term to mean unbalanced) against Zerg. A key point to remember is that the initial Barracks can be used for scouting or to produce Marines (which help an early Mech army).

The 1:1:1 was first popularized by the player The Little One (TLO) and has become the standard in TvT play. The name derives from having one of each unit producing structure: 1 Barracks, 1 Factory, 1 Starport. The synergy that units from these buildings provide have cause this build to become increasingly popular outside of TvT play. The basic idea here is to build a Marine, Tank, Viking force, using the Vikings to give Line of Sight to the Siege tanks (which can fire further than they can see) and using Marines to fight off Air harass.

One of the important points of this strategy is to use Vikings to establish air dominance. In a losing battle, the Vikings can always land and wait for Marine support (as Vikings are an air to air unit). The power from this build comes in its flexibility. Usually 1 techlab and 2 reactors, these addons can quickly be switched, allowing the deployment of Banshees (once air superiority has been obtained) and Hellions, or swapping to Marauders to break a Siege tank grouping. Unless there are serious balance changes in the future a number of SC2 Commentators (Huk, Day9) have suggested that this will become the standard Terran play.

I'll briefly mention a couple of the standard Terran Cheese strategies.

6 Rax into Reaper harass is a popular TvP strategy, as early reapers built from a proxy Rax (a Barracks built close to the opponent) will arrive before the Protoss has Stalkers and thus are unbeatable with good micro.

Banshee rush, especially against Zerg opponents has also been popular as Zerg does not have a staple unit before Tier 2 that can attack air.

Thor drops (often a part of mech builds, or biomech) are very effective. While rushing thor drops can be considered a Cheese, use of them as part of a normal build is present at even the competitive level.

Standard Terran opening is:

1. 9 Supply
2. 12 Barracks
3. 15-22 Orbital Command

How to read these: The number indicates the number of Supply you should have when you build your first structure. This number is usually SCVs but may include other units.

Answered by tzenes

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SC2: Counter turtling terran

Question

i'm playing protoss but i always have the same problem when facing a terran:

As i get my death-bowl, expand and do all the usual things, the terran just turtles non stop. He gets about 12 siege-tanks in his base and about 20 vikings. Once i can't stand that turtling any more i just decide to engage with my entire army ( even a mother-ship ). And then as i arrive at his main my bowl just gets crashed and splashed by all the siege tanks. Btw, did i tell you, that he also surrounded his whole base with 20 missile-turrets?

I want to know how to break this, or any other turtling build.

Thanks in advance :)

-DD

Asked by DailyDoggy

Answer

I love to turtle, and I can tell you it's the kiss of death against anyone but the computer. Unless the two of you have already mined the entire map dry, you can nickle and dime him to death with little trouble. Remember, every mineral you force him to spend, he can't replace, while you have the resources of the entire map to draw from.

Things to do:

Hallucinate, Hallucinate, Hallucinate. Make a couple of carriers, and give them each four imaginary void ray friends, and then pick a small hole in his turret net. Remember, death of a thousand cuts. If he counters with his vikings, teach him the very important lesson: the Phoenix is king of the Air-to-Air. Don't listen to the haters. The phoenix may not be able to stand toe to toe, but they don't need to, and this type of fight is perfect for them. Don't be afraid to take losses, you can afford them. Phoenixes are also great for harassing the tanks. Lift 'em, and punish 'em. Gas heavy units are priority targets in a turtle situation.

Immortals. They are made to take down siege tanks, so use them. Unless he's got a bioball hidden in the back, he won't have a good counter.

Mothership. Use it for the warp, and it should put enough of the tanks out of the way to let you kick in the door, and at a very reasonable cost.

Remember, the turtle is the weakest option. Just expand, tech, and tear him down.

Answered by Satanicpuppy

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How to discover PsyStarcraft's build orders?

Question

I am looking for PsyStarcraft's favorite/most common build order(s). I'm a bronze-level and I find it hard to obtain just from YouTube replays (even when he says what's going on :). I'm especially interested in the following replays:

LIVE Rapz[P] vs [Z]vilePsY

SC2 LMntStallion[T] vs [Z]vilePsY

SC2 akrhRH[Z] vs [Z]vilePsY

How can I tell what exact build orders is he using?

Answer

Game 1: Live game (no production tab), I'll do the best I can.

• 11 Pool
• 15 Extractor
• 16 Overlord
• 16 Queen
• 18 4 lings
• 21 Hatch
• 23 Overlord
• 26 Queen
• 30 Overlord
• 34 Drone transfer (Nothing else was going on)
• 42 Hatchery
• 43 Macro Hatchery
• 48 3 Extractors
• 49 2 Overlords
• 59 8 Lings
• 60 Lair
• 60 Evolution Chamber
• 61 Metabolic Boost
• 76 Roach Warren At this point he just started massing lings to counter all the zealots that were coming.
• 68 Evolution Chamber Run by as soon as ling speed finished. Roaches made as soon as roach warren finished.

Game 2:

• 15 Hatch
• 16 Pool
• 18 Overlord (He supply capped himself :P)
• 18 Extractor
• 18 2x Queen 4 lings
• 25 Overlord
• 26 Spine crawler
• 26 Overlord
• 30 Ling speed
• 31 Overlord
• 31 Evolution Chamber (Side note, he could have built the evo chamber under the spine to force the hellions to have to run around the spine. In other words, he could have used the evolution chamber as part of a wall.)
• 35 Roach Warren (He mentions that it is late).
• 35 8x lings Can't really get the build order after this point since he's losing units and reacting.

Game 3:

• 15 Hatch
• 16 Pool
• 17 Extractor
• 17 Overlord
• Soon as the overlord finishes
• 18 2x Queen 4 lings
• 26 Spine crawler
• 26 Overlord
• 28 Roach Warren
• 29 Overlord x2
• 36 Roaches

Cut Drones Roaches all the way through. This takes you up to the 6:30 Mark

• 2x Overlord
• 2x Extractor
• 56 Supply by this point.

That should pretty much cover the early roach aggression that could have been done. Everything else was reactionary to what he saw.

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What build order should I use for Zerg in StarCraft 2?

Question

I'm familiar with the general mechanics of the game, but what's the best build order for the beginning of the game?

Answer

An opening dictates how you are going to start the match.

The basic Zerg openings:

• 6-10 Pool (Rush)
• 13-14 Pool (Standard)
• 14-15 Pool, 16 Hatch (Macro)
• 14-15 Hatch, 15-16 Pool (Macro+)
• 14 Gas, 14 Pool (Speedling)
• 12 Pool (Sen Style)

How to read these: The number indicates the number of drones you should build before your first structure. Since you can only build 10 before an overlord any number over 10 indicates building an overlord on 9 or 10 (9 or Extractor trick is the superior choice). Pool indicates building a Spawning Pool. Hatch indicates building a Hatchery. Gas, indicates building a Vespene Extractor on your nearby Vespene Geyser.

Which opening you choose usually relies on two things:

1. Your Opponent
2. Your Build

The Rush: A Rush opening is necessarily an all in, so that is a decision you are making prior to starting the match.

Standard: 13-14 pool is considered standard play, it can easily lead to fast expo or 1 base or speedlings or any of another things. Its considered standard play because of the options it offers you. I believe Slush of Root Gaming still runs this build.

Speedling: This is a strat that cropped up near the end of Beta mostly on Korean servers. If you build your gas before your spawning pool and immediately throw 3 drones in it on completion, then you will have exactly 100 gas when your spawning pool finishes. This leads to early speedlings for heavy pressure. Artosis is a large proponent of this build.

Macro and Macro+: Both of these are fast expansion builds designed to get up a very good early economy. They are very vulnerable to rushes, and require good scouting to support. The advantage of these is that if you can scout when your opponent leaves his base you can quickly put together a large force that will be ready just as he arrives allowing you to hold off the assault and be in better economic position. Idra and Machine tend to run this build.

Sen runs a 12 pool to give him a larger advantage against more aggressive zerg opponents, which are common on the asian server. Outside of him, it is not a very popular build.

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9 Overlord vs 10 Overlord

There has been a lot of debate as to getting your overlord after your 9th drone or after your 10th drones. To add confusion it is possible to get your overlord after your 11th drones by building a vespene extractor, building the 11th drone and then canceling the extractor to get your drone back. It is usually agree that getting your Overlord on your 9th drone, or building it after your 10th and then using the extractor trick to get an 11th while your overlord is building are the better choices.

There is some evidence to indicate 9 overlord is slightly better.

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I first wrote this post shortly after beta and while most of what I wrote here still rings true there has been a shift in the Meta game in that time. While 13-14 Pool is still an effective strategy, many more Zerg have shifted towards more Macro oriented builds. 14-15 Hatch in particular has really caught on in ZvT. Everything in the post remains valid but I think its still worthwhile to update on some of the newer developments.

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What is the fastest build-order to get Reavers in Starcraft Broodwar?

Question

I love watching Gojilla play Reavers.

What is the fastest build-order to get Reaver units in Starcraft Broodwar?

Answer

This is probably the best all around fast reaver build that keeps you safe.

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/1_Gate_Reaver

Also, stackexchange isn't really meant to be a discussion board, more of a Q&A thing here. If you want discussions you are better off at TeamLiquid or the Reddit sub-reddit.

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How long does it take for zerglings to spawn during 6-pool and 7-pool in StarCraft 2?

Question

I'm interested in the time from start to when the first 6 zerglings spawn for the 6 and 7 pool rush. Is the 6-pool significantly faster?

Answer

Based on these two videos: 7pool and 6pool

The timing seem to be:

• 7 Pool: 1:20
• 6 Pool: 1:35

Note: these values are in Real Time, not Game Time.

Based on your skill your results may very.

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What's the optimal construction strategy in die2nite?

Question

There's a few rules that every die2nite player knows (regardless of how many actually obey them), like building a tent but not a hovel, constructing a workshop first, etc. After that point, construction order seems like more of an art than a science. I'd like to get some sense of an optimal construction order up to day 5 or 6, at least.

Assume you've got 15 citizens who spend AP on construction per day (225 ap/day), keep defenses within logical limits (to combat daily increased zombie counts) and while you can be optimistic about raw materials, don't be unrealistic. Use day 1 as a non-zombie day and split your daily AP and raw material pull by 50% to simulate a town that isn't full yet.

Requirements (based on some real life numbers):

• 100 defense by day 2
• 400 defense by day 5
• 1,600 defense by day 15

Answer

8/10/2011 Update: Unfortunately the game has changed significantly enough now where the below is no longer useful. You may want to check out How should our town decide what to build next? for advice on how to make the best decisions based on your situation.

OK, I'll start by taking a shot, and then we'll see what optimizations other people can make. This is roughly the order used in my current town, with corrections made where we think we made a mistake.

Assumptions:

• At the beginning, some materials are assumed to be found intact. But after about day 3, I assume that all constructed materials are being refined from the lowest level in the workshop (with the corresponding AP cost)
• Total AP used: 1,090 (so roughly 5 days given the OP assumptions)
• Total builder water usage: 55 (15 builders for 5 days, plus 20 for moat, minus 40 for drilling rig)
• Total builder food usage: 28 (15 builders every other day for 5 days, minus 10 for the vegetable plot)
• Special materials used: I tried to limit these as much as possible. This build uses only 3 nuts & bolts, 3 pipes, 5 cement blocks, 1 electronics, and 1 pharmaceuticals

Final Defense on day 5: 382 plus defensive objects.

---

Day 1

• Build Workshop
• Convert 10 logs into 5 planks
• Convert 10 scrap metal into 5 iron
• Convert 10 planks into 5 beams
• Convert 10 iron into 5 supports
• Build watchtower
• Build factory
• Make 30 tents

Project of the day: Watchtower Total AP Used: 137
Defense: 5+3+(30 tents) = 38 (plus defensive items)
Required: 18 Planks, 15 Wrought Iron, 1 Concrete block, 10 Rotten logs, 10 Scrap metal and 3 Nuts& Bolts

Day 2

• Convert 34 logs into 17 planks
• Convert 8 metal into 4 iron
• Build portal lock
• Build great wall strengthening
• Build great pit
• Build spiked pit

Project of the day: Watchtower
Total AP Used: 227
Defense: 38 + 109 = 147 (plus defensive items)
Required: 8 Scrap metal, 17 Planks, 34 rotten logs, 2 wrought iron

Day 3

• Convert 30 logs to 15 planks
• Convert 12 metal to 6 iron
• Convert 20 planks to 10 beams
• Build pump
• Build water purifier
• Build vegetable plot
• Build moat

Project of the day: Pit
Total AP Used: 247
Defense: 147 + 45 + 13 = 205 (plus defensive items)
Required: 2 Copper pipe, 1 wrought iron, 10 planks, 30 rotten logs, 12 scrap metal

Day 4

• Convert 58 logs to 29 planks
• Convert 14 planks to 7 beams
• Convert 8 metal to 4 iron
• Convert 4 iron to 2 supports
• Build well-drilling rig
• Build old school traps

Project of the day: Pit
Total AP Used: 209

Defense: 205 + 30 + 21 = 256 (plus defensive items)
Required: 8 scrap metal, 28 rotten logs

Day 5

Note that by this day, you have to start building to what materials you have. For example, if you don't have cement, but you have nuts & bolts, you might want to go for ramparts instead.

• Convert 62 logs to 31 planks
• Convert 28 planks to 14 beams
• Convert 28 metal to 14 iron
• Convert 14 iron to 7 supports
• Build armour plating
• Build cannon mounds
• Build stone cannon
• Build breaker

Upgrade: Pit
Total AP Used: 214
Defense: 256 + 94 + 32 = 382 (plus defensive items)
Required: 62 rotten logs, 28 scrap metal

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Other thoughts:

• After the pump is built, getting the water for the moat is easy. I'm not sure how to account for the long-term effect of using that water in this way though. Added the well-drilling rig to make up for this. Even together they're better Defense/AP than most things out there.
• Portal lock is mainly just to prevent stupidity/griefing
• A hacksaw would significantly reduce the cost of all the conversions and allow you to get further ahead

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